Unreasonably Difficult Bosses?

[Maniakkid25]

TAKE TWO!

Bosses. You know them. They are the climax of an area, ending off in a flurry of battle. A necessary inclusion in just about any game. And yet, there are some bosses that are difficult. Very difficult. And I don't mean "It's easy if you do this mechanic." I mean "Even for the game that it's in and doing it the right way, this boss is HARD!" These are the kinds of bosses that make lazy top 10 lists for "the most difficult evah!" and fill the TV Tropes page for That One Boss.

For the inspiration of this thread, I turn to this post I made about Digital Devil Saga's New Game+ Bonus Boss: The Demi-Fiend. Now, there are actually a lot of things that combine together to make this one of the hardest JRPG bosses ever put to polygons, so there's really no way for me to avoid making this a Wall O' Text™. Apologies in advance.

Why This Guy is So Damn Difficult

So, to start with, the fight has rules! Yes, you have to play by his rules, otherwise he just instantly kills you. See, in DDS, you can freely set up your 8 skills using a pool of skills you've unlocked previously, and some of these do useful passive stuff like, say, nullifying damage. If you bring ANY skill that nullifies, absorbs, or reflects ANY type of damage (Excluding Null Critical and Null Sleep -- more on that second one in a bit), he attacks using a move that deals 9000+ damage in a game where you only have 999 health, and if you somehow survive, he just spams it until you die. Did I mention that he also has instant-kill attacks that you are not allowed to nullify? Because he has instant-kill attacks that you're not allowed to nullify!

Next up is the fact that you can't actually damage him with standard attacks. See, he's based on the super secret final form you get in the game he's from, and that form nullifies ALL damage that isn't Almighty damage! Yes, it's that broken! Oh, we still haven't gotten to the actual fight, yet! To start with, this guy has a crit rate that is through the fucking roof. Like, legit, it's something like 90%. This in a game where you get free turns if you land a critical hit! And he gets an extra turn for free to begin with, because screw you, that's what SMT does!

Oh, and that's not including his friends! See, he has two demons that he summons at the beginning, and if you kill one, he just cycles to the next one on the list. He does this INFINITELY, never losing turns to revive a fallen demon, because why not? And when he gets to Pixie and Parvati in the cycle, that's when the Russian Roulette wheel spins! See, remember that Null Sleep skill I mentioned? It doesn't actually nullify the sleep condition, but instead makes you automatically dodge all attacks if you are put to sleep. This is where it becomes important, because Pixie and Parvati, when summoned, will cast the Sleep spell, and then the boss will use his uber-over-9000 attack that he reserves for when you break the rules! He only does this once per summon, but if you don't get slept, then you just die, no saving throw, too bad!

This is all on top of the usual SMT crap you're used to by now, such as instantly dispelling buffs and debuffs, and losing turns because OOPS, the game rolled a botch and your opponent dodged the attack! And just to put the cherry on the ice cream sundae of bullshit, his Pixie and Parvati have a full-heal spell that they will use one time when the guy hits half health. For reference, he has 18000 health.

Now, besides one or two psychos who managed to beat this guy at level 20, there has only been one strat that has been developed to be able to beat him with anything resembling consistency: The Red Star Strategy. Named after the user who developed it, the original post has been lost to time, but it's well-known enough to be google-able. It basically involves stalling out his Pixie so it runs out of MP, and then going for the kill. Even with this strat, it's a SLOG of a fight, easily taking upwards of 30 minutes at the fastest!

Oh, and your reward for this punishment? An equip you only get after importing your save to Digital Devil Saga 2. It's a good equip, no doubt, but not worth the price of admission!

[Moonface]

I really have to question that One Boss trope page and some of the entries. Like, Tiny Tiger in Crash Bandicoot 2? Really? That is not remotely close to "one boss" territory. It is not hard to realize you jump away from him and lure him to jump somewhere that a platform is about to fall down so he falls too.

I will agree with the entry for Delirium from The Binding of Isaac though. That thing is horrible and people have begged for it to get a rework because of how broken it is. I've only ever defeated it by having a run so utterly broken it doesn't get time to hurt me.

Also I just finished playing a game that might get one of the freshest entries in this thread, which although I don't know the name of it it was a boss in Dungeon Clawler. This piece of shit ended my entire run like it was nothing and I could do nothing about it. Every turn it stacked 3 poison onto me, and also stacked 3 heal per attack onto itself. It has 400hp, and each turn it gets to attack 5 times. Here's how its turns went:

1. Attacks 5x for 4 damage each time, which I block but it still heals for 15 (5x3) and at the end of the turn inflicts 3 poison damage on me. Any damage I did was pretty much all healed. 
   
2. Attacks 5x4d but now heals 6hp per attack, so now it heals 30hp. I can't even deal this much damage in two turns. I also now get 6 poison damage. 
   
3. Heals 45hp, gives me 9 poison. 
   
4. 60hp, 12 poison. 
   
5. 75hp, 15 poison. 
   
6. 90hp, 18 poison. 
   

I had no chance by the second turn in this fight but this was how far I held out before my health could no longer hold up from the damage coming in. Even if I could avoid the poison, there is no way I could ever deal enough damage. It so blatantly wasn't tested...

[Moonface]

I forgot about this one at the time I last posted but it's so notorious if you know the game that I have to mention it; the Benoit boss fight in Silent Bomber.

The video sums up everything I could write about it. I remember this fight absolutely slaughtering me as a kid and when I watched this video a while back I didn't remember anything but the chess part. I don't even know if the Benoit part of the fight is actually hard because of him as a boss or if it's hard because the screen becomes such a mess. This is also one of those wonderful bosses that are a ball ache from start to finish and if you die, it's all the way back to the first phase of the entire fight.


@Maniakkid25: As much as that first rule sucks, at least you'd find out the instant you start the fight rather than say, the skills requiring activation first before triggering an instant kill and using the skill a while into the fight. That said, I'm guessing there is nothing to indicate why you get instant-killed right out of the gate so you're somehow expected to eventually figure out it's due to bringing in forbidden skills?
Reading the rest of it, good lord I can't imagine any game having a fight as bad as what that sounds. I'd be surprised if speed runners even touch a run that includes the fight and they're the people I'd expect to find the most bullshit way of beating it.

[Maniakkid25]

Well, checking it on Speedrun.com, they do in fact touch it because they have to beat him in a 100% run! The current record is nearly 23 hours.

Speaking of, I've been playing the SMT Nocturne Remaster recently, and good lord, I hate prepping for the fight with the Matador. For those that don't know, Nocturne actually has three different versions. There's the Japan-exclusive original, the Maniax version, and the Chronicle version. The Maniax version is the one that was localized in the US and EU, and it added things like the Fiends and Amala dungeon, along with the ending associated with them. So, you'd expect that, since they were not in the base game, they wouldn't be required fights. You would be wrong! The Matador is the lone Fiend that you HAVE to fight in order to progress the story. He stands between you an Ikebukuro, and more importantly, the Demonic Compendium. And he is a right bastard to fight!

See, he functions as the game's skill check. This is the point where you either learn to use buffs and debuffs, or you never progress beyond him. He has a skill called Red Capote, that maxes out his accuracy and evasion to the cap of +4, and buffs and debuffs do NOT wear off in this game. So, you have to lower his accuracy/evasion, but if you bring it down to +0, he'll just use Red Capote again. Oh, yeah, it's a skill he can just use! He also has Mazan, so screw any demons that can't take Force damage, and he also has a wicked powerful physical attack called Andalucia that hits random allies. Oh, and did I mention he gets two turns? Because he gets two turns. This fight is so notoriously difficult, he was used as the header image for TV Tropes' That One Boss page.

I hate this fight, I'll be honest. The game is hard enough without dealing with his ass, and he all but requires you level up to a ludicrous level (level 18, and by the time I got to that point I was only level 12). And the sick part? If you want the canonical ending, you have to fight all the fiends, and he's the EASIEST ONE! They somehow manage to get HARDER from here!

[Maniakkid25]

*Throws down shovel* Phew! Had to search for this thread to necro it. But, I do have a reason to do so, so it's not pointless.

So, I've been playing Legend of Dragoon, and just beat the first disc. And considering that he hit me with 402 damage on a character with 636 health, my mind is stuck on the end boss of that disc: Emperor Doel. It's not a spoiler to say he's a boss fight; he's revealed as a villanous force in the very first cutscene, and given the major plot at hand, you probably knew you'd end up fighting him. What is a spoiler is how that fight progresses, so I'll just tag that and be on my way!

Doel Fight talk goes here

So, the fight actually has two forms. The first part is easy. He doesn't hit for too much damage, and he goes down pretty quickly. But then, just when you think it's a done deal (especially considering you just fought a pretty hard boss before this), he transforms into a Dragoon, and now your nightmare starts. I'll be straight up: if you don't have your Wind Dragoon up to Dragoon level 2, I don't know how you're supposed to win the fight. Doel is easily outputting 150+ damage to your characters without trying unless he uses his basic attack, and a level 2 Wind Dragoon knows Rose Storm, which halves damage for 3 turns. You need those turns to just be able to BREATHE, especially if he uses his super attack that nukes that same Wind Dragoon for 200 damage. Oh, I didn't mention the Wind Dragoon takes magic damage like a bitch, did I?

The worst part is, you're pretty locked in with party composition: Dart, Darkness Dragoon, and Wind Dragoon. You have two other members in reserve, but they are useless. The Light Dragoon is about 5 levels below your current average, and the Thunder Dragoon (who is the same element as Doel, meaning he would receive half damage from his magic) doesn't have his Dragoon Spirit yet. Darkness at least has a minor heal, and Wind has the damage reduction I mentioned. Even with this setup, you'll have one member pretty much on permanent heal duty, with the other two hopefully dealing enough damage to take him down. Oh, and as the final kick in the nuts? Doel's health more than doubles after his transformation.

Legitimately, there is an argument to be made that this is the hardest mandatory fight in the entire game. The only other fight that really has a shot at that claim is the disc 2 end boss. But THAT is a story for another time...

[Moonface]

And considering that he hit me with 402 damage on a character with 636 health, my mind is stuck on the end boss of that disc: Emperor Doel.

Seeing that HP to incoming damage ratio immediately made me think of some of the elite enemies in Slay the Spire, such as Nemesis who can potentially open the fight with 6x3 damage followed by 45 damage, so in just two turns you have to block or tank 63 damage. On average each playable character has 70HP, so it's like 90% of a character's health bar worth of damage this prick dishes out. Sure, you might have found ways to increase your HP before you find him, but that also assumes you don't enter the fight damaged. Then you have to hope your draw is decent to get block whenever he does a high damage attack, although even then getting 45 block in a single turn isn't common. Anyway, just had to get that off my chest.


As for the part where if you enter the fight blind and don't have your Wind Dragoon leveled up as a result (let alone even entering the fight with the right party setup), I'm always conflicted about how I feel about fights in games that brutally punish the player for lacking knowledge or setups the player can't know of beforehand on a blind playthrough. If there's a save/load point close to that Doel boss fight to prevent losing a ton of progress if you die, then I wouldn't mind it as much unless that same save/load point is too late to level up the Wind Dragoon for the fight. That's not to say if there is a generous save/load point in place the player can work with that a boss isn't unreasonably hard; I just think there's a fine line between unreasonable difficulty and unreasonable game design.

[Maniakkid25]

There is, in fact, a save point before the boss fight. That pre-boss you fight before Doel? There's nothing stopping you after that fight from backtracking ALL the way to the clinic, get a heal up, and going back to the save point to save before you go and fight Doel so you can go in with maxed out resources. So, you don't lose progress from a loss, you just waste time, and lose confidence as he kicks your ass over and over.

As far as getting the Wind Dragoon to Dragoon Level 2, you pretty much have to deliberately try to not level him up for him to have not hit level 2 by that fight. The last two dungeons forced him into your party (one because you only had three characters, and one because of storyline reasons), so he's been getting some use. You level up Dragoon Levels by generating SP, which is automatically generated through attacks, so as long as you don't suck at the Addition system, he'll be Dragoon Level 2 long before then. If he isn't somehow? You're screwed. The area you are stuck in has no random encounters and exactly ONE respawning enemy. Have fun wasting an hour or so to get him up to snuff!

[Moonface]

Hmm, so I decided to go looking up Doel on the LoD Wiki to see what else his fight can potentially have, since going off just what is in this thread it sounds like most players would have a Level 2 Wind Dragoon to use Rose Storm, and that while the fight is tough it wouldn't be impossible once you figure out a strategy. However, now looking at his full ability list, I see he has a lovely thing called Barrier that just forces you to play only defensively until he can take damage again, and that he often use Random Thunder during this time to test your defensive capabilities to their maximum. The fact he's the Act 1 final boss and can be that bad is actually insane to me and without even playing it first-hand I'm left wondering how much worse the stuff that follows could end up being, since anyone would naturally assume any bosses after Doel will only be harder.

[Maniakkid25]

I bet that article didn't even mention that Doel can sometimes get double turns, and if he decides to use his special attack "Judgement Storm" on both of those turns, you just die. Game over, try again, and hope his AI doesn't do that again. His damage output is absolutely ludicrous for the point you are at in the game, and because of his element, you can't ease the pain by targeting a weakness for double damage! HE DOESN'T HAVE A WEAKNESS!

The good news is there are really only two fights that are in contention for being as hard, if not harder, than Doel. One is the Superboss Magician Faust, who you can't even fight unless you complete a long sidequest that takes you across all four discs. His fight starts with an equipment check: either you have the equipment to resist his opening attack, or you die. There is no third option. Even beyond that, though, his fight is RIDICULOUSLY HARD. I've fought him a couple times, and you basically have to prepare specifically for that fight to have any hope of winning. And if you're doing that, the final boss is a joke, as is standard for Superbosses.

But... there is another. A mandatory fight that is really the only fight that has a chance of usurping Doel's title of "hardest MANDATORY fight in the game". And that... is the disc 2 final boss of Lenus and Regole. Spoilers after this line break.

Spoilers go here

So, I need to start of with explaining the element system of the game. This'll be important later. There are 8 elements in total: Fire, Water, Wind, Earth, Light, Darkness, Thunder, and Non-elemental. Fire and Water are opposite, Wind and Earth are opposites, and Light and Darkness are opposites. Thunder and Non-Elemental have no opposites. The short version of the element system is "Opposites deal double damage, and same elements deal half damage". Easy!

So, to start with, Lenus and Regole are Water Element. "Why is this so bad?" You may be asking. Well, you see, Dart -- who is required to always be in the party -- is fire element. You can see the problem already, can't you? Yeah, one of your three party members is taking double damage from basically ALL OF THEIR ATTACKS! Now, this is a double-edged sword: if you have any sense, you are walking in with Dart's Heat Blade, which turns his physical attacks into Fire Element attacks, and you probably have him Dragoon Level 3, meaning he can use Final Burst, which is his strongest magic attack that isn't a dragon summon. This is helpful, but there's one other problem: Lenus' speed is so high, she might as well be on meth!

Lenus alone is getting two, three, sometimes even FOUR TURNS of uninterrupted attacks, and basically every single attack is a field nuke! And just like Doel, she's doing absolutely cracked amounts of damage, though this is a little better since she's doing 300, 400 damage when you have 1100 HP, not 600. That's a cold comfort if the game just lets her get those quad turns, because sometimes the game just hates you like that.

Oh, and don't think the Dragon is taking it easy on you, either! He's not only dealing Water Element damage, but LIGHT, TOO, so your Darkness Dragoon is about to have a bad time! This fight is about at the final limit that your Darkness Dragoon is still useful; after this point, you're better off fighting with the Light Dragoon or Water Dragoon, depending on how physically oriented you want to be. But she may still have some use in this fight, but the fight WILL make you work for it!

Legitimately, I don't know how you can win this fight without Final Burst. You just do not have the DPS to be able to kill one of them fast enough to be able to get the breathing room necessary to survive. And this is when the sickest joke hits you if you're playing on PS2: there is a known bug in this fight. If you fight her, and transform into a Dragoon at any point in the fight, the game softlocks on a black screen after the end of combat, and never progresses. The one fight you NEED that trump card, the game spits in your face and breaks because of it! This fight is the reason why I can only recite the first two discs of the game plot beat for plot beat; because I've been stymied by this fight so many times! And yet, I'd still argue Doel is the harder fight!

[Dragon Lord]

One of the only bosses that I can think of off the top of my head that could be considered unreasonably difficult would be the Unknown Figure secret boss fight in Kingdom Hearts: Birth By Sleep Final Mix.

He's a complete mess of a boss fight. He hits incredibly hard to the point that the Second Chance + Once More combo of abilities is required in order to actually survive any attack in this fight. Second Chance ensures you will survive a hit with 1 HP that otherwise would have killed you (as long as you're not already at 1 HP). Once More ensures that you will survive a combo with 1 HP that would have otherwise killed you. Most of his attacks are one-shots if you don't have Second Chance on, and his combos are so long that they will be an instant game over without Once More.

Then there's the issue of his anti-combo mechanic. Kingdom Hearts games are usually known for how fun it is to string together long combos, but Mysterious Figure completely shuts that down. It's been a while since I've fought him last, but I believe after taking... two or three hits, he automatically breaks out of any combos and then hits you with a counter attack that will one-shot you if you don't have Second Chance equipped.

Then there are his many gimmicks that make the fight... less than enjoyable. He's got a instant-death attack where he makes your commands roulette and when they stop you have to select the right one to break the attack. If you take too long (just a few seconds) or select the wrong one, you're instantly killed regardless of what abilities you have. Straight up just a game over. You can spam X and hope that you hit the command while it's still going through the roulette, but that's not always guaranteed to work.

Then he has an attack that makes you drop all of your commands on the ground, and you have to run around and pick them up or you can't do anything. Makes it really fun when he does this followed up by one his extremely hard to dodge attacks, because it can once again just be an automatic game over without you being able to do anything.

A couple of his other attacks are pretty bullshit too. He can go invisible, where you're not able to lock-on to him (which is really bad because he moves really fast, so it can be really hard to keep track of him when you can't lock-on) and another move where he makes three clones of himself and you have to dodge four of him attacking you at once.

There's a good reason why 99.99% of people suggest just doing the cheese method against him where you just hit him with Thunder Surge (staggers him when hit) over and over again. It's still not a guaranteed method, because you do have to time your usage of the skill right, because you can't just infinitely stagger lock him with it since he'll break out and counter you. But it is by far the most reliable way of killing him, because trying to fight him "fair" is extremely difficult and usually not worth the headache.

Oh, and then to top it off, he's got one of the most confusing AI behaviors people have seen. Even to this day people haven't been able to 100% pin down what causes his AI to act in certain ways completely. Here's a short video going over a few AI behaviors and what can affect them. I had actually forgotten that if you hit him when he puts his shield up (which he tends to do when you try to combo him), he heals off of every hit and you can end up accidentally bringing him back up to full health.

This boss was just designed to be a huge "fuck you" to the players and counter pretty much every mechanic of the game. There's a very good reason why this specific boss is considered by most of the KH fanbase to be the worst boss in the entire KH series, and one of the worst bosses in gaming period.

Unfortunately I've had to fight him a lot, since if you want to 100% Birth By Sleep, you have to fight him with all three characters, and I've had to do that twice to get the platinum for PS3 and then again for PS4. I'll have to do it once more when I went to go for the 100% on the Steam version of the game, but that's a bridge I'm not going to cross any time soon. Maybe when Kingdom Hearts 4 releases in 2075, I'll 100% all of the other KH games on Steam then.

I can't really think of any other bosses I'd sure are as pure bullshit as this guy is, but if I think of any more that could be worth mentioning, I'll post about them.